Under pressure Troy reveals he has nine rental properties

Westmeath TD and Junior Minister Robert Troy told RTÉ he has nine rental properties during the course of an interview in which he apologised for "serious" and "embarrassing" errors in his declaration of Oireachtas members' interests.

"I hold my hand up. I did make a very serious mistake, and to be frank I'm embarrassed that I got it so wrong, and that I needed such a comprehensive amendment to the statement of members' interests," he said during a 20-minute interview with Brian Dobson on today's News at One programme on RTÉ Radio One.

He said the list of changes he made to his members' interests declaration has arisen from the mistaken belief that he only needed to declare the interests that he held at December 31 on any given year, rather than interests he'd had at other stages during the preceding year.

When asked by Mr Dobson to outline his current property holdings, he said: "Currently I have six properties that I either own or part-own. Three properties that I own in my own name, one of those includes my constituency offices, and I have three other properties that I am in a partnership arrangement with.

"Within those holdings, one of the properties is sublet into three units, and another property is sublet into four units, so in total I've eleven properties at the moment, nine of which are rented out."

He said he had never tried to disclose his property holdings from the public, and that his non-declarations on the Oireachtas members' interests register had arisen because of his misinterpretation of the declaration requirements.

"Did you read the register of members' interests before you signed it?" Mr Dobson asked him.

"I think, Brian, to be honest, I'm guilty that I didn't give the process the due diligence that it deserved," he replied.

He said there had been an allegation that, as a landlord, he had insisted on cash payments for the duration of a tenancy, and that this was not correct.

"(This) is something I have to refute fully. The insistence of cash has a lot of negative connotations about it.

"I have a signed affidavit from that previous tenant, who was alleged to have made that allegation, to contradict that."

He also acknowledged that the rental of his former home in Ballynacargy, which began last November, had not been registered with the Residential Tenancies Board, which is a legal requirement, until this month.

The Junior Minister said he had asked a letting agent to register the rental, but it wasn't done, and that he was ultimately responsible for the error.

Mr Dobson pointed out that registering a property with the RTB "is the law, and you're one of the people we elect to make the law."

"I can't say it any clearer, Brian. I accept it was my responsibility. I asked somebody else to do it. Unfortunately, it was not done. It is done now," Minister Troy replied.

Opposition parties have this week called on him to make a statement to the Dáil about his property holdings when it returns from its summer break next month.

Today, he said he had told the Taoiseach and Tanaiste he would be willing to make such a statement and answer questions in the Dáil.

"I'm an open book. I have absolutely nothing to hide. I never tried to conceal anything and I never tried to use my public position for private gain," he stated.

* Below is an edited transcript of Robert Troy's interview on the News at One today:

Brian Dobson: As people will know, there have been a series of controversies in recent weeks around revelations of your property interests, of properties that you've bought and sold, of houses let to local authorities, and of properties, you now admit, not being disclosed as they should have been on the register of TDs' interests. What properties do you own, or have you owned, since you were elected to the Dáil in 2011?

Robert Troy: Can I start by apologising; Apologising to my constituents, my colleagues in Government, my colleagues across the Dáil, to SIPO (the Standards In Public Office Commission) and the public at large. I do hold my hand up. I did make a very serious mistake, and to be frank I'm embarrassed that I got it so wrong, and that I needed such a comprehensive amendment to the statement of members' interests.

The root of the issue here is that I misinterpreted the requirements. I was wrongly under the impression that I only needed to declare the interests that I held on December 31 of a particular year, not on an annualised basis.

BD: What actually are your property interests? What have they been since you became a TD?

RT: Currently I have six properties that I either own or part-own. Three properties that I own in my own name, one of those includes my constituency offices, and I have three other properties that I am in a partnership arrangement with.

Within those holdings, one of the properties is sublet into three units, and another property is sublet into four units, so in total I've eleven properties at the moment, nine of which are rented out.

BD: In relation to the non-disclosure of, I think, three properties over the years, your explanation for that is that you misunderstood the members' interests guidelines?

RT: I misinterpreted the guidelines. I was under the impression, wrongly, that it was only properties that were in my interest as of the 31st of a particular year that I needed to include. That's why some properties were not fully accounted for.

BD: And those properties were?

RT: Those properties were the property I sold at Ashfield, Mullingar, it was accounted for for seven years, it wasn't accounted for in the eighth year, the year I sold it. The property at Oakcrest, Mullingar, was accounted for the year I purchased, it wasn't accounted for the year I sold it.

The property in Longford was not included at all because I bought and sold it in the one year, and there was another property at Dublin bridge that was included but again it wasn't included in the year that I disposed of that property.

The actual point I'd like to make here... there's an allegation or a charge that somehow I tried to conceal my interests from the public. That is factually incorrect.

Bar one property, I have made reference to every other interest, every other property, at some stage in my members' interest returns. I admit, not fully. I admit, in certain instances, not in the right location. But I did not try to conceal any of my property interests in the lifetime of this... since I was elected to the Dáil.

BD: One (property) you've admitted, since you bought and sold it in the same year, never appeared anywhere?

RT: That is correct.

BD: So that was completely concealed?

RT: No, I did not try to conceal it. That was an error in my interpretation of the requirements.

BD: Did you read the register of members' interests before you signed it?

RT: I think, Brian, to be honest, I'm guilty that I didn't give the process the due diligence that it deserved, and as a consequence of that I didn't fully account for my interests.

BD: So you didn't read the document before you signed it?

RT: I didn't give it the due diligence that it deserves, and I hold my hand up. I admit that. I got it wrong. And I can assure you, and your listeners, that's not something that I'll do again.

I made a mistake, I've held my hand up, and as soon as it was identified to me I took time out and I prepared a comprehensive amendment to SIPO which I've lodged with them since last Thursday. I thought I had got it right, but I didn't. I acknowledge that. I've now made the amendment and I'm prepared to deal with SIPO in that context.

As a landlord, an allegation was made that I insisted on cash payments for the duration of a tenancy, which is something I have to refute fully.

The insistence of cash has a lot of negative connotations about it. I have a signed affidavit from that previous tenant, who was alleged to have made that allegation, to contradict that.

As well as that, for a large proportion of that tenancy, the rent was paid by Westmeath County Council through a RAS agreement.

BD: For the period in which it wasn't paid by Westmeath County Council, how was that payment made?

RT: That was made by cash, at the request of the tenant, and that tenant has signed a declaration to that effect... he wanted to ensure that he could keep a connection between me, as his landlord, and him as the tenant. So I totally refute that, and cash is a legal tender, and any cash that I did take was lodged and returned in my annual returns, and tax paid on it.

BD: You also failed to declare your directorship of a company called RMT Management Ltd, which I think is the company that some of these properties were vested in?

RT: No, there was no properties vested in that company. That was a company that I used to manage the properties.

BD: So, why again, in the last year of its operation, did you fail to declare your interest in that company?

RT: It boils back to the very point, and the root of the issue here. I didn't feel that I had to declare something when it was disposed of in a particular year. If I did not have an interest in either a property or a company, as of December 31 in that year, I did not declare it.

I declared my directorship of RMT in 2019, in 2020, but I didn't declare it in 2021 because the company had ceased trading and was no longer in operation.

BD: But when we look at the statement of interests that you signed -- you put your name to it -- it says 'directorship or shadow directorship of any company held by you at any time during the appropriate period, January 1 to December 31, (shall be declared)'. Again, did you read that section before signing it?

RT: Again, I can only admit that I got it badly wrong. I'm embarrassed at how wrong I got it. But it is fundamentally based on the misinterpretation that I had at the very beginning, which was that I only needed to declare my interest as of December 31. I now know that is not the case, and the minute it was brought to my attention I carried out a comprehensive review of my interests and I made a comprehensive statement to SIPO, and I'm willing to meet SIPO and engage with them on that basis.

BD: A number of your properties were let, or are let, under the Rental Accommodation Scheme (RAS), which is operated by local authorities. How many RAS properties have you had, and with which local authorities?

RT: In the lifetime of my time in the Dáil, I've had two rental agreement schemes. One predates my membership of the Dáil, and it currently exists. I'm in receipt of €780 per month for a two-bedroom property in Mullingar, so that property is Westmeath County Council.

The other RAS agreement was in operation from August 2011 to, I think, summer 2018, when the council actually bought that property from me. The maximum that I ever had with the local authority, under a RAS agreement, was two.

I want to be clear, I do have another agreement, which is the HAP payment (scheme). I have five properties under HAP.

HAP is not required to be declared on the members' interests form, but I do have HAP payment for five properties at the moment.

BD: So, how much are you being paid under RAS, the rental assistance scheme?

RT: €780 a month, for a two-bedroom townhouse in Mullingar. That equates to €9,360. That property is in joint-name, so only 50% of that is relevant to me.

BD: Were you availing of RAS when you spoke in the Dáil in relation to this, calling for increased funding for the scheme and looking for information about the uptake?

RT: What we have to put in context is, that debate you referred to is in 2014, it was a debate on the Housing Miscellaneous Bill. On that bill, I took the opportunity to speak on a range of issues, the tenant purchase scheme, anti-social behaviour, domestic abuse supports...

BD: But let's stick to RAS. You were availing of RAS when you spoke in relation to the scheme in the Dáil in 2014?

RT: At that time I had two RAS (properties), yes.

BD: Did you declare that interest at the time?

RT: At the time, I didn't think I had to declare RAS on the members' interests statement.

BD: But, leaving that aside, in the course of your speaking to the Dáil on this issue, did it occur to you that you should say, actually, I have an interest in this, and this is my interest?

RT: Well, to be frank, I don't think I can leave it aside because if I felt it was a conflict of interest I would have declared it.

BD: You didn't feel it was a conflict of interest, benefiting from the scheme but at the same time speaking about it?

RT: I didn't feel it had to be included on the members' interests and I'll explain to you why I didn't feel it had to be included on the members' interests. The reason being that I felt the contract was between me and the tenant.

BD: But the money was paid by the county council, directly to you?

RT: It was, as is the same with the HAP payment. The money is paid by the county council directly to the landlord - not just to me, to any landlord - but they do not have to be declared because the relationship here is between the landlord and the tenant.

BD: So, as far as you're concerned, you had no contractual relationship with Westmeath County Council in respect of these two RAS schemes?

RT: There is a relationship with Westmeath County Council. The council will pay a rent based on the tenancy.

BD: So it is a contract between you and Westmeath County Council, and contracts should be declared if they exceed €6,500?

RT: Well, Brian, only two weeks ago, when I was preparing for my returns, I rang SIPO, and SIPO were unable to say with clarity whether it had to be declared or not. They said that they would need to see the contract. The reason why they said that was because a similar scheme, the HAP scheme, does not have to be declared.

BD: The Residential Tenancies Board (RTB), and this question of your failure to register what had been your former principal private residence... you let it in November 2021. When was it registered with the RTB?

RT: In August of this year.

BD: Why did that delay take place? Why did it take from November until August to make that registration, which is a requirement of the law?

RT: My rental interests are managed by two letting agencies, one in Dublin and one in Mullingar. I'm not trying to push the blame onto somebody else. Ultimately, the responsibility rests with the landlord, but I had asked for that tenancy to be registered with the RTB.

It was only in the context of the review of my interests, for updating my members' interests, that it became apparent that the registration hadn't been completed. We immediately set about completing it. There is an opportunity on the RTB website to pay a late registration fee. We've paid that, everything is up to date with Ballinacargy, and everything is up to date with every other property that I own.

BD: But (registering a property with the RTB) is the law, and you're one of the people we elect to make the law.

RT: I can't say it any clearer, Brian. I accept it was my responsibility. I asked somebody else to do it. Unfortunately, it was not done. It is done now.

BD: You brought a property in Longford in May 2019 for €82,500 and sold it then in August of that year, just three months later, for €163,000, to the county council. You doubled your money in three months. How did you do that?

RT: Firstly, to put it in context, that property was for sale on the open market for 12 months, before I purchased it, through White's auctioneers, for €69,950. I bought it for €82,500.

The property was in an uninhabitable state. The roof needed repairs. The ceiling was falling in. The kitchen needed repairs. An upgrade to the heating system. There was doors hanging off the hinges. So there was a substantial amount of work to be done.

With that work, and with the professional fees associated with the acquisition, with the sale, and with the auctioneers' fees, I sold it for €163,000. I sold it on the open market, through a local auctioneer. He advertised it, and that was the going rate for that property at the time.

BD: You did all that work, engaged in that expense, in just three months?

RT: Yes, because I was aware that the sale was closing and I had the necessary contractors lined up, ready to go, so I could get the work done in a timely fashion.

BD: Would you like to tell us how much you cleared at the end of the day?

RT: I cleared, before tax, €36,000.

BD: Minister Robert Troy, thanks for talking to us.

RT: If I could, just before I finish, I want to say that I take full responsibility for my errors. As soon as they were identified to me, I amended my returns. I have said to the Taoiseach and Tanaiste I am very happy to address the Dáil and answer any questions on this issue. I'm happy to meet SIPO, I'm happy to meet the RTB.

I'm an open book. I have absolutely nothing to hide. I never tried to conceal anything and I never tried to use my public position for private gain.

But I do believe the forum to deal with this is either in the Dáil, with RTB, or with SIPO. I don't believe the forum is for journalists calling to my wife's parents' home, or to the homes of my tenants currently. I don't think that's fair, and I will make myself available in September to the Dáil, to SIPO, and to the RTB.